Comments on Seen Through a Glass: What is craft beer?

Craft beer-does it matter what it's called as long...

2008-01-24T14:45:00.000-05:00

Craft beer-does it matter what it's called as long as tastes okay.
Graham from www.logo-n-stitch.co.uk

Well-said. I think...that this may be evidence tha...

2007-08-09T14:16:00.000-04:00

Well-said. I think...that this may be evidence that the big boys, or at least A-B, is getting the idea that these brands must be marketed differently. I asked about this, and was told that they understood the smaller numbers involved, the longer sales growth times involved, and the softer sell needed for this kind of beer. It's more a wine model. The production guys understand it. They tell me that marketing gets it. They do hire smart people, so I think there's a chance they'll give these beers a fair chance.

The big question is whether beer drinkers will. That may be a matter of timing. Blue Moon is selling like mad right now, and most folks are drinking it because the taste is different and they like that...not because it's made by Coors. Blue Moon is a perfect example of how to market a beer like this: gently. Late-blooming smarts? Maybe.

Yeah, by my definition, that A-B stuff COULD be cr...

2007-08-09T13:59:00.000-04:00

Yeah, by my definition, that A-B stuff COULD be craft beer. There's no reason a major brewery couldn't make a craft beer. The brewers are certainly skilled enough, and if the beer is good, I'll drink it.

Unfortunately here's the bugaboo whenever the majors try to do craft beers: the suits ruin it. They don't give a specialty product enough time to develop within its niche. Profits have to go up quarterly, and that's barely enough time to brew and serve a specialty lager.

IKEA could sell fine expensive hand-built Swedish furniture, but it's outside their business model. Thus is the case every craft beer the Macros try, too. The only way they've been able to keep a foot in the door of the craft beer industry is by purchasing breweries like Red Hook and keeping their marketing departments the hell away from them.

It's that eye on the shareholder that always keeps the majors from really contributing to craft beer.

If they let their regional beers run independently, and don't attempt to sell them with the same marketing model as Budweiser or Bud Select, and protect them from the finance department, then they have a real craft beer.

So Mark...the guys at A-B tell me -- and I have no...

2007-08-09T13:09:00.000-04:00

So Mark...the guys at A-B tell me -- and I have no reason to disbelieve them, because pretty much everything they HAVE told me in the past has turned out to be true; it's the things that they don't say that you have to watch them on -- that the regional beers they're doing, like Burnin' Helles and Devil Ray Red and so on, are beers that the brewers at their regional facilities came up with, on their own, and they're being put out in draft with very little fanfare or promotional support, just because they want to do them.

By your definition, that's craft, no? If I'm missing something, tell me, but I'd agree, mainly because I think "craft" in this sense has become something else than "craft" means in a broader sense, kind of like the way "gay" has shifted in meaning.

Further discussion, anyone?

To me, craft beer is any beer designed to be purch...

2007-08-09T12:41:00.000-04:00

To me, craft beer is any beer designed to be purchased primarily on the quality of the beer, not the quality of the marketing department.

A craftsman is someone who creates something with great skill. Not someone who makes something as cheaply as possible, relying on a huge distribution network and millions of marketing dollars to sell it.

It's true with furniture, and it's true with beer.

Craft beer to me is beer developed and brewed by t...

2007-08-09T12:37:00.000-04:00

Craft beer to me is beer developed and brewed by the brewer and not by the marketing department.

It sounds over simplistic, but beer that is brewed to sell well based first and foremost on its quality is craft beer, whereas alcofizz designed to cost as little as possible to brew and designed to sell well because of the power of advertising and mass distribution is not.

To me, a craft brewer should be growing and maltin...

2007-07-22T09:59:00.000-04:00

To me, a craft brewer should be growing and malting his own grains and growing his own hops. When I hear the term "craft brewer," I just picture their little brewery in front of a huge field of grain. Not possible, I know. Maybe we should dispense with the Craft Beer label, and replace it with MicroBrewed beer.

Simply put, craft beer is ANY beer that, when some...

2007-07-11T11:44:00.000-04:00

Simply put, craft beer is ANY beer that, when someone who knows and loves beer or brewing tastes the product, he can clearly percieve the exceptional level of skill that went into making both a distinctive and pleasing beer.

This is a drinkers definition and as such, it seeks to operate outside of industry production caps or methods and focuses on the product. There are world class beers from large breweries like Sierra Nevada or Goose Island, and there are really unimagenative and sorry beers from guys who are one step up from homebrewing. If the beer didn't change, I'd drink Hennepin Saison if they made enough of it to put on tap at every restaurant in the world, including McDonald's!

Jerry Said: How about "a craft beer is one that is...

2007-06-27T16:34:00.000-04:00

Jerry Said: How about "a craft beer is one that is brewed to achieve a particular taste", as opposed to a particular level of sales?

This was one of my first thoughts last year, around the time that I sold out with Lew in the hop fields. But this is not clear line either.

I used to want to work into the definition, is craft beer is beer where the brewer is uncompromising on the product. Flavor over sales, etc.

But what exactly is a compromise? If a small craft brewer, changes their process, even slightly to remove an inefficiency, and save some money is that a compromise?

Not if the beer isn't changed, you might say, but that is even a more subjective metric.

Or what if the brewer changes the process, saves a ton of money, the beer is very different, but many people think it's better, is that a craft beer?

There is only one way that this conversation will ever end, that will be when Lew closes commenting on this post. :)

Buckspin: I never meant to imply common, though es...

2007-06-27T07:56:00.000-04:00

Buckspin: I never meant to imply common, though essentially saying "not not subjective" would be take that way. What I mean is a lexicon of taste that anyone can dip into as they wish. Just because we share a common dictionary does not mean we are going to write the same essay. But I also think that beery dictionary is not yet established as Websters did for American English. To do so will take the primary experience of glass to lips being recognized as the most important part of good beer followed by the expression of what each person tasted. There is a rigor in this that goes beyond rating or even taste wheels. Also an acknowledgment that the same collection of organic chemicals found in beer (or cheese or produce) can recombine differently for different people.

So I think it is better to say that you and I each do not have a personal lexicon so much as a personal experience expressed through a common lexicon but that common lexicon is not yet fully detailed.

On the matter of faith, you can have faith in craft beer but that is like being a fan. I am a fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs. I know how useless that experience is. Yet still I am one.

Alan
A Good Beer Blog

A big part of craft beer's success, and the succes...

2007-06-27T00:35:00.000-04:00

A big part of craft beer's success, and the success of other, small producer brands and products, involves rebellion against the ever-larger multinationals seeking to homogenize what we eat and drink. Remove that factor and you immediately remove an important purchase motivator.

Forgive the long quote, but...I agree wholeheartedly with this, which is why I find limiting "craft" or "micro" breweries by size to be unfair. The label is definitely a positive for many consumers, and losing it because you were "too successful" just isn't right.

Thanks for weighing in, Steve.

I have to agree that "craft beer" isn't something ...

2007-06-26T18:20:00.000-04:00

I have to agree that "craft beer" isn't something you can define "in the glass". How about "a craft beer is one that is brewed to achieve a particular taste", as opposed to a particular level of sales? A-B can brew craft beers, while the guy at Joe's Brewpub who feels compelled to fill a couple of slots in the reguar lineup with beers he's not exactly passionate about can brew non-craft beers. Obviously, craft beers aren't necessarily good, nor do non-craft beers have to be bad.

From my perspective, Loren is the only one who's g...

2007-06-26T14:10:00.000-04:00

From my perspective, Loren is the only one who's gotten it right thus far.

This entire debate is trying to fit a square peg into a round whole. "Craft beer" isn't something you can percieve in your glass. The BA's definition of craft beer is designed to define the group of brewers that is represents. Lest we forget, the Brewers Association is not a consumer group, it is a TRADE group and represents breweries, not beer drinkers.

Alan said:"An assessment of what is good in beer i...

2007-06-26T09:24:00.000-04:00

Alan said:

"An assessment of what is good in beer is neither subjective or a matter of faith."

Well, in a pint glass (as opposed to a nurshell) you're wrong. Anything involving perception & opinion thru one of the 5 senses is incredibly subjective. Your blanket comment establishes that there is good music, good food, good aromas, good views and good feelings (and subsequently bad one as a result) that CAN be quantified by definition via a common, accpeted lexicon. My personal lexicon is shaped by thousands upon thousands of experiences, and defines for me what is good and what is not, as it does for you & everyone else.

When I taught I always used this example to help keep normal & abnormal in perspective. Normal is just a unit of measure, specifically a majority of an given environment. The term abnormal is often used to describe people with certain mental & physical disabilities, which within the context of contemporary society as we know it is accurate. However, go to a state hospital or a care facility where the overwhelming majority are those with this unfortunate afflictions and suddenly the wheels have turned - you/we/I have become the "abnormal" one in that we are now, with that environment, in the minority. Just keep that in mind when defining good/bad, craft/uncraft (anticraft, I ask again?)

As for faith, to me that is the belief and/or confidence in that which cannot be proven - so to say that you cannot have faith in a craft beer is pretty inaccurate in that it seems that no one, in words/language at least, can even prove craft beer EXIST!

I am liking Justice Potter's description more & more. To paraphrase - "I can't define it, but I know it when I taste it".

Whoda thunk this discussion would get so philosophical? Shame we can't all be debating this with a few elbow bends in a nice pub with Lew scribbling furiously on the napkins! Of course we would all be working off his tab in exchange for all these pearls falling out of everyone's mouths - great, civil discussion everyone....cheers!

Buckspin: "American Craft beer is that beer whose ...

2007-06-26T09:10:00.000-04:00

Buckspin: "American Craft beer is that beer whose flagship brand is not an American-style lager with (relative numbers for gravity, IBUs, ABV, etc) or with no more than (% to be determined) adjunct additivies or hops treated to prevent skunking, and is readily & easily avaialable in all 50 US states".

Why is availability in all 50 States a factor? If anything, such wide availability might be considered indicative of mass-production?

Also - I think the idea that craft beer should be defined in such a rigidly American context is another example of you guys selling yourselves short. Move on from defining craft beer is "anything but BMC". Craft beer shouldn't be about bashing one style of beer (pale lager) and it isn't about bashing three brewing companies (B, M & C).

Oh, Rick, rick, rick,Anheuser-Busch has a small pi...

2007-06-26T08:39:00.000-04:00

Oh, Rick, rick, rick,

Anheuser-Busch has a small pilot brewery in St. Louis where brewers like Florian Kuplent are crafting beer.

See, it's HARD to define this thing.

Holy crap this is interesting! go away for a week...

2007-06-25T20:39:00.000-04:00

Holy crap this is interesting! go away for a weekend and wow...

If you really want to define "Craft Beer" then you need to parse it out. What is beer, and then what is Craft? Craft is actually the easier of the two terms to define because, well, it is defined. Something you do with your hands (abbreviated). Can you really make a 100bbl beer by hand? Are you stirring it with stick and sweating over the kettle? Doubtful. Granted, that's a bit too tough for modern technology, so I'll give credit to those who do more than push buttons.

Now, try to define beer on its own and then it goes nutty. So, take the beer out of the equation for now and focus on the 'craft', which also has elements of education/apprenticeship involved.

When you get to the point where you are production brewing, that is following a set recipe, then I think you've moved beyond the craft.

Oh, and SN at least has a small pilot brewery where their new products are still crafted. I've seen it and don't have any beef calling Steve and his staff "Craft Brewers" - but SN Pale Ale is not a craft beer at this point. Sorry, off the cuff a bit, but my two cents.

sid boggle said..."As a brewer, do you feel pain w...

2007-06-25T17:30:00.000-04:00

sid boggle said...
"As a brewer, do you feel pain when your company decides to adulterate your beer? Maybe that's the difference... Who decides what happens to that beer your 'artisans' created?"

This is something I always wondered too. Of course art and business ideas don't always mix (famous music example-Prince). Those artists in disagreement forced to comply will either baulk (and walk, unless a contract forbids them to leave without being sued), compromise, or suck it up and comply. To what point I wonder. I guess it depends on how bad that brewer needs that job.

I think some American brewers such as Phil M. of Southampton and all of his proteges, or someone like Neill Acer of Defiant Brewing Co. would rather be completely in charge of the direction of the beers they made, and if that was threatened, as evidenced by Defiant, would leave to run their own show.

The basis of the definition for craft beer should ...

2007-06-25T17:02:00.000-04:00

The basis of the definition for craft beer should come from the craft perspective. Brewing is a creative process, and should be viewed as a art form. Craft beer is critiqued and reviewed like movies and music, and I don't care what anybody says, the brewing of craft beer is comparable to jewelry design, clothing design, and furniture design. It has a function even if that function is an artier way to get people drunk. Its historical. Ok you can't display actual beer in a gallery, but you can display bottles, signs etc.

Also I will throw in the no adjuncts part into my definition. Watered down beer is not crafted, its reduced.

I'm choosing to leave the "sales" aspect out of the definition.

"What sets the "craft" brewers apart is that they ...

2007-06-25T10:03:00.000-04:00

"What sets the "craft" brewers apart is that they don't brew mainstream American-type lager as their flagship beer."

So now, to define craft, we need to not only define "American-type lager" but also "mainstream" as well? However, I feel that could be quantified by numbers, both in brewing, production & distribution.

So, as a v1 Beta:

"American Craft beer is that beer whose flagship brand is not an American-style lager with (relative numbers for gravity, IBUs, ABV, etc) or with no more than (% to be determined) adjunct additivies or hops treated to prevent skunking, and is readily & easily avaialable in all 50 US states".

Sounds like a *groan* Mission Statement to me.

Sorry I'm so late to this; busy week and weekend.....

2007-06-25T09:46:00.000-04:00

Sorry I'm so late to this; busy week and weekend...

Does it matter if it's craft?

Yes, it does matter because context and perception are irrevocably intertwined. For some people, even most craft beer drinkers, I'll wager, the knowledge that a beer is from A-B will lower their perception of quality and their enjoyment of it. A big part of craft beer's success, and the success of other, small producer brands and products, involves rebellion against the ever-larger multinationals seeking to homogenize what we eat and drink. Remove that factor and you immediately remove an important purchase motivator.

No, it doesn't matter because I don't drink the label, I drink the beer. If it's good, I like it and will at least on occasion buy it, regardless of its pedigree.

Lew, I suggest to you that you're quite right in purporting that there is no such thing as a definition of craft which you can taste in your glass, any more than there's a definition of macro that you can similarly perceive. I don't know about you, but I've sampled a whole lot of small brewery offerings that tasted a lot more mainstream than A-B's Michelob Hefeweizen, Bare Knuckle Stout or, presumably (because I haven't yet tasted it) Beach Bum Blonde.

And BTW, congrats on the new writing gig. You in the mainstream press is long overdue. (Although, to quote Ogden Nash, "every time a friend of mine succeeds, a little part of me dies."

a definition "that really addresses characteristic...

2007-06-25T09:31:00.000-04:00

a definition "that really addresses characteristics that you can see, taste, and smell in the glass."

This reminds me of the ages old home-brewing T-Shirt: "Warning, the beer in your glass may contain something you aren't used to in a beer -- flavor."

How about that for the bottom-line, distinguishing difference?

Simple answer? There is no definition. The name wa...

2007-06-25T08:04:00.000-04:00

Simple answer? There is no definition. The name was created just so the brewers association can monitor sales. Period. It's basically equal to "needing" to find a style when you try a new and unique brewing creation that doesn't fit a currently established set of guidelines. What to do...what to do...what to do...I know! Create a hybrid style so everyone against categorization for the sake of it will have something new to argue over. So you're right. Nothing fits the bill...unless the brewers association decides they need to change their definition.

An assessment of what is good in beer is neither s...

2007-06-25T07:38:00.000-04:00

An assessment of what is good in beer is neither subjective or a matter of faith. It does require a reasonable lexicon on tasting concepts that, I think, the idea of "craft" dissuades us from. It does so through its implication of loyalty to "the movement" or even any brewer who is trying or makes claims to "craft" even in the face of what is in the glass.

To flesh out the better word or concept to replace "craft" I think we need to establish a bit more clearly what the goal is. IMHO, that can only relate to flavour and value and if someone can pump out a grainy pale ale with a fresh and well placed hop bitterness, what care I that the place has a staff of 1,000 rather than one?

Alan
A Good Beer Blog

Buck,My whole point is that I want a definition of...

2007-06-25T00:43:00.000-04:00

Buck,

My whole point is that I want a definition of craft I can taste in the glass...because I don't think that exists, but also because I think it's the only kind of definition that matters. Because what really sets the small breweries in America apart is variety. It's not technology, or marketing, or lager, or innovation, or hops, or independence, or processes; you can find valid exceptions everywhere. What sets the "craft" brewers apart is that they don't brew mainstream American-type lager as their flagship beer.

Does that mean that a brewery that does can't make craft beer? I don't think so...but it's not easy. "Craft beer" is wrapped up in emotions and prejudices. I have 'em too. I like the production guys at A-B, but I've got problems with stuff the company has done and continues to do.

When the beer's in front of me, I do my best to put all that aside. But when it's time to write about the companies and the business...blinders off.

Not a definition, I know, but...I don't really think "craft beer" is a useful definition. Useful shorthand, yes, but definition? No.